Points of Controversy
OR
Subjects of Discourse
BEING A TRANSLATION OF THE KATHAVATTHU
FROM THE ABHIDHAMMA-PITAKA
BY
SHWE ZAN AUNG, B.A
AND
MRS. RHYS DAVIDS, M.A
10. Of Moral Restraint.
Controverted Point. — That there is self-control among
devas.
From the Commentary.—The question is raised concerning the
view of those who hold that among the devas, beginning above the
Thirty-Three, inasmuch as there was no committal of the five vices,
2
there is self-control.
2
Verani : taking life, theft, fornication, false, slanderous, idle
speech, taking intoxicating drinks.
[1] Th.—Since you affirm its existence, you imply also
[that there may be] absence of it among devas. You deny
this, meaning that there is no want of it among devas.
Then you imply that there is no [need of] self-control
among them—this again you deny, by your proposition.
[2] Granting that virtue is restraint from absence of
self-restraint, does this restraint exist among devas? 'Yes,'
you say, but you are hereby implying also the co-existence
of absence of self-restraint. And this you deny.
[8] Yet you admit the co-existence among humans.
Why not among devas ? [4] For instance, you say ' devas
abstain from taking life, from intoxicating drinks.' Yet
you deny that these vices are found among them. [5] You
contend they are not found among them, yet you will not
allow that restraint from them is not found either, [6, 7]
although you allow the co-existence of both among men.
[8] Opponent.—But i f moral restraint is absent among
devas, surely you are implying that all devas are takers of
life, thieves, etc.
1
They are not, hence, etc. .. .
11. Of Unconscious Life.
Controverted Point.—That there is consciousness among
the denizens of the sphere called Unconscious.
2
From the Commentary.—This belief is of the Andhakas, derived
partly from the Word: ' mind [at rebirth] is conditioned by previous
actions
3
so that, in their view, there is no living rebirth without
mind, partly from this other "Word:
4
those devas decease from that
group as soon as consciousness arises in them *4
They concede con-
sciousness to those devas of the unconscious sphere at the moment of
rebirth and of decease.
1
Asangvara = sangvaritabbo—that over which self-restraint
ought to be used.— Comy. Hence, 'a vice.' If there were no vice,
self-restraint would be meaningless. Presence of vice denotes absence
of self-restraint.
2
Cf . Compendium, p. 136. A sphere in the mid-heavens called
Rupa-loka. Cf. n. 4.
3 Vibhanga, 135 f.; Samyutta-Nik, ii. 2 passim:
4
Digha-Nik., iii. 33. ' Mind' (vinnana ) and consciousness
(sanna) are here used in a synonymous and very general sense.
[1] Th.—But you surely cannot admit that such a being
has conscious life or destiny, dwells among conscious beings,
fares onward with conscious continuity from birth to birth,
has consciousness as his birthright, has acquired a conscious
personality? Is not the opposite of all these terms true of
him ? [2] Is their life, etc., fivefold in its constituents ? Is
it not rather a life, destiny . . . acquisition of personality,
of a single constituent ?
1
Hence, even if we grant your
proposition, you cannot say that such a being, when
consciously functioning, functions by just that [act of]
consciousness you ascribe to him; nor do you claim this.
[8] If, in § 1, you substitute for 'unconscious beings'
'men,' you could and would describe the latter further as
'having conscious life, and destiny, and so on.' And you
would describe them, further, as having a life, destiny,
habitation, further rebirth, constitution, acquisition of
personality [as determined for them] by five organic
constituents. But when I say you have committed your-
self to all this with respect to unconscious beings, in
virtue of your proposition, you deny. Similarly for § 3, if
we substitute 'man' for 'such a being.'
[4] Let us assume the truth of your proposition, ad-
mitting, of course, that there is consciousness in the human
sphere—why do you go on to affirm, for those devas, an
unconscious life, destiny, habitation, further rebirth, con-
stitution, acquisition of personality, but deny it for men ?
And why do you go on, further, to affirm a life, destiny,
etc., o f one organic constituent for those devas, but deny
it for men? Why, finally, do you deny, for the un-
conscious beings, the functioning in consciousness by
just that [quota of] consciousness you assign to them, but
affirm it in the case of human beings ?
[5] A.—If it is wrong to say 'there is consciousness in
1
I.e., of material quality only, not of this, plus the four classes of
mental constituents. Vokara is here used for khandha . Bud-
dhist tradition connects it with kar-ma. Vividhena visum
visum kariyati : 'is made by various ways and alternatives.' Cf.
Vibhanga-, 419 ; Yamaha, passim.
the Unconscious devas,' let me remind you of a Suttanta
in which the Exalted One said: There are devas, bhikkhus,
called the Unconscious Beings; now those devas, when con-
sciousness does arise, decease from that group.1 But our view
really is this, that [6] they are only conscious sometimes.
Th.—That is to say, they are sometimes conscious beings,
having conscious life, having fivefold organic life, and
sometimes unconscious beings, having unconscious life,
having a single organic life—which is absurd.
[7] Again, at what time are they conscious, at what
time not ?
A.—At decease and at rebirth, but not during life.
Th.—But then the same absurd transformation must
happen.
1 See p. 153, n. 4.
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