Points of Controversy
OR
Subjects of Discourse
BEING A TRANSLATION OF THE KATHAVATTHU
FROM THE ABHIDHAMMA-PITAKA
BY
SHWE ZAN AUNG, B.A
AND
MRS. RHYS DAVIDS, M.A
9. Of a Specified Progress in Penetration.
Controverted Point. — That penetration is acquired in
segmentary order.
From the Commentary.—By thoughtlessly considering such Suttas
as—
'Little by little, one by one, as pass
The moments, gradually let the wise,' etc.,
1
the Andhakas, Sabbatthivadins, Sammitiyas, and Bhadrayanikas have
acquired the opinion that, in realizing the Four Paths, the corruptions
were put away by so many slices as each of the Four Truths was
intuited (cf. I. 4).
[1] Th.—If you affirm that there is a definite graduation
in penetration, you must also affirm that the first Path
(Stream-Winning) is gradually developed.
2
If you refuse,
your first proposition falls. If you consent, you must also
admit gradual realization of the fruition of that Path.
But you cannot. [2-4] Similarly for the realization of
the second, third, and fourth Fruits.
[5] [But tell me more of this gradual piecemeal ac-
quiring:] when a person is working to be able to realize
the fruition of Stream - Winning, and wins insight into
[the first Truth, namely] the fact of Ill , what does he
give up ?
A. S. S. Bh —He gives up the theory of soul, doubt,
the infection of mere rule and ritual,
3
and a fourth part in
the corruptions that are bound up with them.
Th. — This fourth part:—do you maintain that 'he-
[thereby] becomes one quarter Stream-Winner, one quarter
not ? Has one quarter of him won, attained to, arrived
at, realized the Fruit? Does a quarter of him abide in
personal contact with it, and a quarter -not ? Does a
1
Sutta-Nipata, verse 962; Dhammapada, verse 239; quoted
already, I. 4, § 17; and below, § 18.
2
Development in Path-attainments is considered as essentially a
momentary flash of insight. Each phala-citta (unit of fruitional con-
sciousness) is, for instance, momentary, albeit the flow of such units
may persist awhile. Cf . Compendium, pp. 25, 161, n. 5, 215.
3
The first three ' Fetters.' See above, p. 66, n. 2.
quarter of him get seven more rebirths only, rebirths only
among gods and men, or one more rebirth only ?1 Is one
quarter of him endowed with implicit faith in the Buddha,
the Norm, the Order ? Is a quarter of him endowed with
virtues dear to Ariyans, and a quarter of him not ? You
deny this, yet it follows from your proposition.
[6] Again, when he wins insight into [the second, third,
and fourth Truths, namely] the cause of Ill , its cessation,
and the Path leading to that, what does he give up ? The
same things, say you ? Then the same objection applies.
[7-9] Or what does a person who is working to be able to
realize the fruition of the other three Paths give up ?
A. 8. S. Bh. —He gives up respectively (1) the bulk of
sense-desires, intense ill-will, and a quarter of the corrup-
tions bound up with them; (2) the residuum of sense-
desires and of ill-will, and one quarter of the corrup-
tions bound up with them; (8) lusting after life in any of
the higher heavens, conceit, distraction, ignorance, and
one quarter of the corruptions bound up with them.
Th.—Then the same objection applies, namely, you must
say whether, for example, he is one quarter Arahant,2 one
quarter not, and so on.
[10] When a person who is practising to be able to
realize the fruition of Stream-Winning is beginning to see
the fact of Ill , would you call him 'a practiser' ?
A. S. S. Bh.—Yes.
Th.—Would you, when he has seen it, call him ' estab-
lished in the fruit'? No, you reply, but why not? So
again, in the case of the three other Truths—why not ?
[11] Again, you allow that such a person, when he is
coming to see the [first] Path, may be called a practises
and you allow that when he has seen that Path, he is to
be called 'established in fruition.' Yet you do not allow
that such a person who, when he is coming to see the fact
1
On these terms, see above, p. 77, n. 3.
2 The detailed replies to (1), (2),'and (3) enumerate the respective
rewards of the Second, Third, and Fourth Paths stated fully in I. 4,
§§ 5, 9, and 13.
of Ill , may be called practiser, may, when he has seen the
fact of Ill , be called 'established in fruition'—why not?
Again, you allow that such a person, when he is coming to
see the [first] Path, may be called practiser, and when he
has seen the fact of Ill , may be called established in
fruition. Yet you do not allow that such a person who,
when he is coming to see the cause, or the cessation of Ill ,
may be called practiser, may, when he has seen either
of these Truths, be called established in fruition—why
not ?
[12] Once more, you allow that such a person, when he
is coming to see the fact of Ill , may be called practiser,
while you refuse, when he has seen that fact, to call him
established in fruition (as in § 10). Then you must allow,
and refuse similarly, i f we substitute any other of the
Four Truths—but to this you did not agree [§ 11].
[18] With reference to your position (in § 12): you
compel yourself to admit, that insight into the fact, or the
cause, or the cessation, of Ill is really of no value.
1
[14] A. S..S. Bh.—You affirm then that, when once [the
first Truth, viz., the fact and nature of] Ill is seen, the
Four Truths are seen ?
Th.—Yes.
A. S. 'S. Bh.—Then you must admit also that the First
Truth amounts to the Four Truths.
Th.— [Ah, no ! for you as for us] if the material aggre-
gate (khandha) is seen to be impermanent, all five are
seen to be so.
2
Yet you would not therefore say that the
material aggregate amounts to all the others. [15] A
similar argument may be applied to the twelvefold field of
sense and the twenty-two ' controllers ' or faculties.
[16] If you believe that the fruition of the First Path
is realized by [insight considered as divided into so many
integral portions, for example,] the Four Insights, the
1
Since the discerner may not be called 'established in fruition.'
2
' Just as the presence of the sea may be known by the taste of one
drop of sea-water.'—Comy. See Appendix : Paramattha.
Eight, Twelve, Forty-four, Seventy-seven Insights,1 then
you must admit a corresponding number of Fruits o f the
First Path—which of course you do not.
[17] A. S. S. Bh.—You say our proposition that there is a
gradual sequence in penetration is wrong. But was it not
said by the Exalted One : 'Even, O bhikkhus, as the ocean
slopes gradually, inclines gradually, has gradual hollows,.
without abrupt precipices, so, in this Norm and Discipline,,
is there gradual training, gradual achievement, gradual 'prac-
tice, but no sudden discernment of gnosis'?2
[18] Again, was it not said by the Exalted One :
' Little by little, one by one, as pass
The moments, gradually let the wise
Like smith the blemishes of silver, blow
The specks away that mar his purity '?3
[19] Th.—That is so. But did not the venerable Gavam-
pati address the brethren thus : 'Brothers, I have heard
this from the Exalted One, and learnt it from his lips:—
O bhikkhus ! whoso sees the fact of Ill, sees also its cause, its
cessation, and the course of practice leading thereto. Whoso
sees the cause of Ill, sees also Ill itself, its cessation, and the
course of practice leading thereto. Whoso sees the cessation
Ill, sees also Ill itself, its cause, and the course of practice
leading to its cessation. Whoso sees the way, sees also Ill,
sees its cause, sees its cessation ' ?4
[20] Again, was it not said by the Exalted One:
'For him e'en as insight doth come to pass,
Three things as bygones are renounced for aye:
1
These are explained as insight into (a) the Truths, (6) the Truths
plus the four Sections of analytic knowledge (patisambhida's) ,
(c) the Causal formula (paticca-samuppada) , (d) the Truths
each applied to items 2 to 12 of that formula (as in Samyutta-Nik,
ii. 56 f.; nanassa vatthuni) , and, similarly applied, these seven
terms : ' impermanent, conditioned, causally arisen, subject to perish,
to pass away, to lose passion, to cease' (Samyutta-Nik., ii. 26).
2
Vinaya Texts, iii. 303.
3
See above (I. 4, § 17), from the Comy._ 4
Samyutta-Nik, v. 436.
Belief that in him dwells a soul, and doubt,
And faith in rule and rite—if aught remain.
Both from the fourfold doom is he released
And n'er the six fell deeds are his to do '?1
Again, was it not said by the Exalted One: 'Whenever,
O bhikkhus, for the Ariyan disciple there doth arise the stain-
less, flawless Eye of the Norm—that whatsoever by its nature
may happen, may all by its nature cease—then with the
coming of that vision doth he put away these three fetters:
belief in a soul, doubt, and the contagion of mere rule and
ritual'?2
1 Quoted above, I. 4, § 18. Sutta-Nipata, verse 231.
2 Quoted above, I. 5, § 19 ; see references.
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