Majjhima Nikaya - Aggi-Vacchagotta Sutta

MN 72
Aggi-Vacchagotta Sutta
To Vacchagotta on Fire
Translated from the Pali by
Thanissaro BhikkhuPTS: M i 483



Source: Transcribed from a file provided by the translator.



Copyright © 1997 Thanissaro Bhikkhu.
Access to Insight edition © 1997
For free distribution. This work may be republished, reformatted,
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I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying in Savatthi, at
Jeta's Grove, Anathapindika's monastery. Then the wanderer Vacchagotta went to
the Blessed One and, on arrival, exchanged courteous greetings with him. After
an exchange of friendly greetings & courtesies, he sat to one side. As he was
sitting there he asked the Blessed One: "How is it, Master Gotama, does Master
Gotama hold the view: 'The cosmos is eternal: only this is true, anything
otherwise is worthless'?"
"...no..."
"Then does Master Gotama hold the view: 'The cosmos is not eternal: only this is
true, anything otherwise is worthless'?"
"...no..."
"Then does Master Gotama hold the view: 'The cosmos is finite: only this is
true, anything otherwise is worthless'?"
"...no..."
"Then does Master Gotama hold the view: 'The cosmos is infinite: only this is
true, anything otherwise is worthless'?"
"...no..."
"Then does Master Gotama hold the view: 'The soul & the body are the same: only
this is true, anything otherwise is worthless'?"
"...no..."
"Then does Master Gotama hold the view: 'The soul is one thing and the body
another: only this is true, anything otherwise is worthless'?"
"...no..."
"Then does Master Gotama hold the view: 'After death a Tathagata exists: only
this is true, anything otherwise is worthless'?"
"...no..."
"Then does Master Gotama hold the view: 'After death a Tathagata does not exist:
only this is true, anything otherwise is worthless'?"
"...no..."
"Then does Master Gotama hold the view: 'After death a Tathagata both exists &
does not exist: only this is true, anything otherwise is worthless'?"
"...no..."
"Then does Master Gotama hold the view: 'After death a Tathagata neither exists
nor does not exist: only this is true, anything otherwise is worthless'?"
"...no..."
"How is it, Master Gotama, when Master Gotama is asked if he holds the view 'the
cosmos is eternal...'... 'after death a Tathagata neither exists nor does not
exist: only this is true, anything otherwise is worthless,' he says '...no...'
in each case. Seeing what drawback, then, is Master Gotama thus entirely
dissociated from each of these ten positions?"
"Vaccha, the position that 'the cosmos is eternal' is a thicket of views, a
wilderness of views, a contortion of views, a writhing of views, a fetter of
views. It is accompanied by suffering, distress, despair, & fever, and it does
not lead to disenchantment, dispassion, cessation; to calm, direct knowledge,
full Awakening, Unbinding.
"The position that 'the cosmos is not eternal'...
"...'the cosmos is finite'...
"...'the cosmos is infinite'...
"...'the soul & the body are the same'...
"...'the soul is one thing and the body another'...
"...'after death a Tathagata exists'...
"...'after death a Tathagata does not exist'...
"...'after death a Tathagata both exists & does not exist'...
"...'after death a Tathagata neither exists nor does not exist'... does not lead
to disenchantment, dispassion, cessation; to calm, direct knowledge, full
Awakening, Unbinding."
"Does Master Gotama have any position at all?"
"A 'position,' Vaccha, is something that a Tathagata has done away with. What a
Tathagata sees is this: 'Such is form, such its origin, such its disappearance;
such is feeling, such its origin, such its disappearance; such is perception...
such are mental fabrications... such is consciousness, such its origin, such its
disappearance.' Because of this, I say, a Tathagata — with the ending, fading
out, cessation, renunciation, & relinquishment of all construings, all
excogitations, all I-making & mine-making & obsession with conceit — is, through
lack of clinging/sustenance, released."
"But, Master Gotama, the monk whose mind is thus released: Where does he
reappear?"
"'Reappear,' Vaccha, doesn't apply."
"In that case, Master Gotama, he does not reappear."
"'Does not reappear,' Vaccha, doesn't apply."
"...both does & does not reappear."
"...doesn't apply."
"...neither does nor does not reappear."
"...doesn't apply."
"How is it, Master Gotama, when Master Gotama is asked if the monk reappears...
does not reappear... both does & does not reappear... neither does nor does not
reappear, he says, '...doesn't apply' in each case. At this point, Master
Gotama, I am befuddled; at this point, confused. The modicum of clarity coming
to me from your earlier conversation is now obscured."
"Of course you're befuddled, Vaccha. Of course you're confused. Deep, Vaccha, is
this phenomenon, hard to see, hard to realize, tranquil, refined, beyond the
scope of conjecture, subtle, to-be-experienced by the wise. For those with other
views, other practices, other satisfactions, other aims, other teachers, it is
difficult to know. That being the case, I will now put some questions to you.
Answer as you see fit. What do you think, Vaccha: If a fire were burning in
front of you, would you know that, 'This fire is burning in front of me'?"
"...yes..."
"And suppose someone were to ask you, Vaccha, 'This fire burning in front of
you, dependent on what is it burning?' Thus asked, how would you reply?"
"...I would reply, 'This fire burning in front of me is burning dependent on
grass & timber as its sustenance.'"
"If the fire burning in front of you were to go out, would you know that, 'This
fire burning in front of me has gone out'?"
"...yes..."
"And suppose someone were to ask you, 'This fire that has gone out in front of
you, in which direction from here has it gone? East? West? North? Or south?'
Thus asked, how would you reply?"
"That doesn't apply, Master Gotama. Any fire burning dependent on a sustenance
of grass and timber, being unnourished — from having consumed that sustenance
and not being offered any other — is classified simply as 'out' (unbound)."
"Even so, Vaccha, any physical form by which one describing the Tathagata would
describe him: That the Tathagata has abandoned, its root destroyed, like an
uprooted palm tree, deprived of the conditions of existence, not destined for
future arising. Freed from the classification of form, Vaccha, the Tathagata is
deep, boundless, hard to fathom, like the sea. 'Reappears' doesn't apply. 'Does
not reappear' doesn't apply. 'Both does & does not reappear' doesn't apply.
'Neither reappears nor does not reappear' doesn't apply.
"Any feeling... Any perception... Any mental fabrication...
"Any consciousness by which one describing the Tathagata would describe him:
That the Tathagata has abandoned, its root destroyed, like an uprooted palm
tree, deprived of the conditions of existence, not destined for future arising.
Freed from the classification of consciousness, Vaccha, the Tathagata is deep,
boundless, hard to fathom, like the sea. 'Reappears' doesn't apply. 'Does not
reappear' doesn't apply. 'Both does & does not reappear' doesn't apply. 'Neither
reappears nor does not reappear' doesn't apply."
When this was said, the wanderer Vacchagotta said to the Blessed One: "Master
Gotama, it is as if there were a great sala tree not far from a village or town:
From inconstancy, its branches and leaves would wear away, its bark would wear
away, its sapwood would wear away, so that on a later occasion — divested of
branches, leaves, bark, & sapwood — it would stand as pure heartwood. In the
same way, Master Gotama's words are divested of branches, leaves, bark, &
sapwood and stand as pure heartwood.
"Magnificent, Master Gotama! Magnificent! Just as if he were to place upright
what was overturned, to reveal what was hidden, to show the way to one who was
lost, or were to carry a lamp into the dark so that those with eyes could see
forms, in the same way has Master Gotama has — through many lines of reasoning —
made the Dhamma clear. I go to Master Gotama for refuge, to the Dhamma, and to
the Sangha of monks. May Master Gotama remember me as a lay follower who has
gone to him for refuge, from this day forward, for life."