Points of  Controversy 
OR 
Subjects of  Discourse 
BEING A TRANSLATION OF THE KATHAVATTHU 
FROM THE ABHIDHAMMA-PITAKA 
BY 
SHWE ZAN AUNG, B.A 
AND 
MRS. RHYS DAVIDS, M.A
BOOK XI 
1. Of  Three  Facts  about Latent  Bias. 
Controverted  Points.—(i.) That latent bias1 is unmoral 
(indeterminate). 
From the Commentary.  — That latent bias in its seven forms  is 
(i.) unmoral, (ii.) without moral or immoral motive, (iii.) indepen-
dent of  mind, is an opinion held, for  instance, by the Mahasanghikas 
and the Sammitiyas. They allege that it is not right to say that the 
average man, while moral, or unmoral consciousness is going on, has 
latent bias, since the motive or condition of  such consciousness cannot 
cause latent bias [to manifest  itself],  nor is such consciousness con-
joined with any form  of  bias. 
[1] Th.—But  are you prepared to identify  latent bias 
with any of  the morally indeterminate ultimates—with 
resultant or with inoperative indeterminates, with matter 
or body, with Nibbana, or with the organs and objects of 
sense ? Of  course you deny this. . . . 
[2-8] Again, take each form  of  bias—unless you can 
prove that each form  is something different  in kind or 
degree from  the corresponding kind of 'fetter,'  or 'outburst,' 
or 'flood,'  or 'yoke,' or 'hindrance,' which are indisputably 
immoral states, you cannot call the corresponding form  of 
bias unmoral, whether it be sensual desires, or enmity, 
or conceit, or mere opinion, or doubt, or lust of  life,  or 
nescience.2 
[9] M.  S.—Well,  but would you say that an average 
man, while thinking moral or tmmoral thoughts, had latent 
bias ? 
Th.—Yes.
 
1 On this term see III. 2 f. ; IX. 4. 
2 The 'seven forms.'
M.  S.—Do you tell me then that good and bad ideas 
can come together side by side in consciousness ? 
Th—Nay,  that cannot truly be said. . . . 
M.  S.—Then latent bias must be unmoral. 
Th.—Then  you must go further  and admit that lust is 
unmoral, because you will agree that the average man, 
when thinking good or unmoral thoughts, has not got rid 
the while of  the root-condition of  lust or greed. . . . 
(ii.) That latent bias is without moral motive (or root-
condition).1 
[10] Th.—Since  you cannot identify  latent bias with 
any ultimate [cf.  § 1], these being admittedly independent 
of  the root-conditions or hetu's,  it only remains for  you to 
show that each form  of  latent bias is something different 
in kind or degree from  the corresponding kind of 'fetter,'  or 
'outburst,' or 'flood,'  or 'yoke,' or 'hindrance,' which are 
indisputably motived by the root-conditions of  lust, or 
enmity, or dulness. .. . 
[11] M.  S.—You urge that latent biases are not uncon-
ditioned by these root-conditions, and you still maintain 
that an average person, while thinking moral or unmoral 
thoughts, is possessed the while by forms  of  latent bias. 
But you deny that these forms  are conditioned by any of 
the root-conditions accompanying those thoughts. Surely 
then latent-bias is unconditioned.
2 
Th.—You  admit that such an average person is still 
possessed of  lust, even while thinking moral or unmoral 
thoughts. But you deny that that lust is conditioned by 
the 'hetu'  accompanying those thoughts. According to 
you, therefore,  lust is unconditioned—which is absurd. 
1
 On hetu, see Compendium,  279 f.;  cf.  .Duka-patthana,  (PTS), ' 
xii., xiii. 
2
 The argument is complicated by ra g a being classed as both 
(i.) 'root-condition,' or het n (as such it is sometimes called 
lobha) , and (ii.) the first  in the list of  seven forms  of  latent bias : 
kama-raga . 
(iii.) That latent bias is independent of  consciousness. 
[12-19] Argued  verbatim as in IX. 4, § § 1-8, substituting 
' independent of'  or '  conjoined with ' ' consciousness ' for 
' without' or 'with ' ' mental object' respectively. 
[20] M.  S.—You affirm  that an average person is still 
possessed of  latent bias, even while thinking moral or 
unmoral thoughts. But you deny that the latent bias is 
conjoined with such thoughts. Surely then latent bias is 
independent of  mind. 
Th.—If,  as you admit, such a person is still possessed of 
lust while thinking moral or immoral thoughts, your 
denial that lust is conjoined with those thoughts does not 
necessarily lead to the false  conclusion that lust is inde-
pendent of  mind.
 
2. Of  Insight. 
Controverted  Point.—That  it is wrong to say 'he has 
insight' of  one who, though he has banished nescience, 
has thoughts not conjoined with insight. 
From the Commentary.—Some,  like the Mahasanghikas, hold that 
one who, having banished spiritual ignorance by Path-insight, is 
experiencing ordinary cognitions by way of  sense, cannot at the time 
be said to ' have insight,' since Path-consciousness is then not active. 
The criticism reveals their ineptitude in the notion of  what an [Ariyan] 
person is, and also the propriety of  ascribing insight to one who, 
having acquired insight [has it always potentially, if  not actually].1 
[1]  Th.—Then  you must also admit it is not right to 
say that, when lust has departed, a man has ' done with 
lust.' Similarly for  hate, and for  dulness, and for  worldly 
corruptions generally. [2] If,  on the contrary, you main-
tain that it is right to affirm  these latter propositions, then 
it is no less right to say, of  one for  whom nescience is 
departed, but for  whom cognition not conjoined with insight 
is active, that he has insight. 
1
 Cf .  this borrowing of  a modern turn (anticipated by Aristotle) in 
X. 12, p. 248. 
[3] M.—But if  it be right to say thus of  that person, is 
it in virtue of  past insight? Can he be said 'to have in-
sight ' by an insight that has ceased, that is past, that has 
subsided ? You deny this . . . 
3. Of  Insight  and  Ordinary  Consciousness. 
Controverted  Point.—That  insight (nana) is not con-
joined with consciousness. 
From the Commentary.—Some,  like the Pubbaseliyas, hold that, 
inasmuch as an Arahant, who is said to have insight on account of 
that which he has won by the Path, may experience sense-cognitions 
which "are not conjoined with that insight, therefore  insight is inde-
pendent of  ordinary consciousness. The criticism shows that, if 
insight be detached from  consciousness, it must be identifiable  with 
one of  the categories of  things that are other than consciousness. 
[1] Th.—But  are you prepared to identify  insight, 
with all that is admittedly detached from  consciousness: 
—with matter, Nibbana, or the organs and objects of  sense ? 
Scarcely! .. . 
Or are you prepared to declare 'insight' as having 
nothing in common with understanding?1 For you will 
admit that understanding, as controlling power or force,  as 
supremely right view, as intuitive search for  truth,2 is not 
detached from,  but is bound up with, consciousness? 
[2] Insight, again, as* we agree, includes, involves the 
activity of  the aggregate of  the coefficients  of  conscious-
ness, [3] as also does understanding. Both of  these are 
conjoined with consciousness. How then can insight be 
detached from  it ? [4] Hence, if  you maintain that insight 
and understanding, both involving conscious coefficients, 
are respectively detached from  and conjoined with con-
1
 Panna . It is possible to translate both terms by the same 
English term, none fitting  exactly. Both are aspects of  ' knowledge.'
Cf .  Ledi Sadaw, JPTS,  1914, 142 ;' Mrs. Rh. D.: Buddhism,  1914, 
pp. 94, 130, 201; also on the Patisambhiddamagga,  JRAS,1906, 239 f. 
2
 Cf.  Dhamma-sangani, § 292. 
sciousness, you are committed to this: that the aggregate 
of  coefficients  is in part conjoined with, in part detached 
from,  consciousness—which you of  course deny. . . . 
[5] P.—You contend then that an Arahant who is 
enjoying cognitions by way o f  sight, etc., may be said to 
'have insight'? 
Th.—Yes. 
P.—But is his insight conjoined with that  consciousness 
(sight, etc.) ? 
Th.—Nay,  that cannot truly be said. . . . 
P.—Then my proposition holds. 
Th.—But  such an argument holds equally for 'under-
standing,' if  you substitute that for  'insight.' And you 
have admitted the connection between understanding and 
consciousness.
 
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